Omar Halabieh [00:00:01]:

Hey, this is a new discipline. I need to learn it. I started to look at problems in a new way. I started to look at my team members in a new way. I started looking at the engagement with stakeholders in a new way. And I was equipped with tools and resources to be able to better manage these situations.

Matt Gjertsen [00:00:33]:

In my quest to help engineers and technical contributors become great people managers, I tend to talk with two different kinds of guests. I talk either with technical leaders who have already made the transition themselves, or I talk with leadership experts. And in today's episode of the Leadership Launchpad, I get to talk to someone who is actually both. Omar Holaby is a global tech executive with over 20 years of experience in the industry. He is currently the Director of Technology for Amazon Payment Services, based in Dubai. Within and outside of his role, Omar is passionate about helping others unleash their leadership potential and accelerate their career growth. In this conversation, we really focus on the common challenges that people face when they first become a people manager. From delegation to relationship management, building trust, we really cover it all.

Matt Gjertsen [00:01:28]:

But before we get into that discussion, I do want to remind you that if this is your first time listening to the show, make sure you subscribe so you never miss a future episode. And if you happen to be someone who is responsible for leadership development in your organization, I would love if you could reach out to Me Mattever everyday studios.com so we could talk about what's going on with your organization and whether we can help you build that better managers. And with that, let's get into the discussion with Omar Halaby.

Matt Gjertsen [00:02:00]:

Omar, thank you so much for being on the Leadership Launchpad. How are you doing today?

Omar Halabieh [00:02:05]:

I'm doing great. Thanks a lot for having me. I'm super excited to dive in.

Matt Gjertsen [00:02:09]:

Yeah, I'm really excited to have you here because I've been following you for a long time on LinkedIn. You are amazingly active there. I don't know how you find the time, especially with your. What I'm sure is a very demanding career. I'd love to kind of peel back a little bit because, you know, as people find this show, they might look you up on LinkedIn and see just all the wealth of knowledge that you have that you're sharing on LinkedIn. But I'd like to start kind of back at the beginning of understanding a little bit more of your leadership journey. What was your first role as a people manager?

Omar Halabieh [00:02:43]:

Sure. So my first role as a people manager was almost 15 years ago now. I was working in an energy company and up to that point I've been obviously in IC as a software engineer working on systems related to power management and energy. And as I worked through that, a few things kind of for me were very important. Obviously doing your job really well is almost in some sense a prerequisite to any consideration for advancement. But it was also around both how you help others, I think was one definite component because that also shows your ability to lead in some sense without authority and lead with influence. And the other thing was really noticing what are some, let's call it, white spaces that exist, meaning these are responsibilities or jobs that need to get done that don't necessarily fall and you know, your core responsibilities or let's say your formal job description. So it may be like, say, for example, on a project you're working and then some contract with a third party vendor is blocked and you're going in there figuring out how do you, how can you help it move forward? Because you're stuck on like integration, testing that you needed to get done with that third party.

Omar Halabieh [00:04:03]:

So a lot of these things I think give glimpses of like your leadership potential. And so after that doing that for a while, my manager at the time decided to move on and take up another opportunity. So when the leadership team looked at the profile of the team, who the people were there, what they were doing, what kind of trust and respect they've built both within the team and with stakeholders, I kind of emerged as a natural candidate for that role and I was offered that position more formally. So that was kind of my transition. And I think a few things that I've learned is again, you have to do your job really well. You have to think beyond the boundaries of your scope or your responsibilities. And you need to be like a scale multiplier in terms of adding value whenever and wherever you can and helping your team thrive.

Matt Gjertsen [00:04:57]:

Yeah, I love so many pieces of that. The thing, a memory that sparked in me that's is something kind of from a completely different walk of life. But I'll never forget one time when I was, I think I was in a restaurant somewhere, some random restaurant, and asking. We were asking for help from somebody who wasn't a server, but we were asking them if they could check on an order or something like that. And they made some comment of just like, oh no, I'm not a server yet, I'll do that stuff once they pay me to be a server. And it was just, you know, kind of. I think that's one of the things that often gets in people's minds of just like that you get the position and then you do the work. But there's so much that goes into, it's not about like working for free necessarily, you know, but like you have to show the people above you that you have that wider frame a little bit, you know, of being able to take on jobs, you know, being able to take, be able to take on responsibilities that are necessarily yours, for one, but also just that you have kind of some sense of bigger picture.

Matt Gjertsen [00:05:59]:

What's a little bit important to kind of show that you're, that you're ready to move up, is that right?

Omar Halabieh [00:06:03]:

Totally. Because ultimately, you know, whenever leaders are making a decision to say, give you a role or promote you or whatever, they're taking some level of risk. Right. Because ultimately they don't know how things are going to pan out. So the best thing you can do is how do you minimize that perceived risk to them so that they feel confident that they're making the right choice in that regards. And obviously if these are things you're already doing, that's the best way, at least that I know of, that you can reduce that perceived risk.

Matt Gjertsen [00:06:38]:

I love that. That's such a, that's such a great frame of thinking about it. Yeah, I really like that. If you, if you remember back when you first moved up into that people manager role, do you remember kind of like what your belief was about what it meant to be a manager or what it meant to be a leader back then?

Omar Halabieh [00:06:54]:

Sure. To be honest, like, you know, starting out as a manager is probably one of the toughest career transitions. And obviously, you know, even then I've been promoted several times. That first transition I remember vividly because of just how challenging it was because you, you pretty much have to completely switch your mindset from that of like, what contributions can I directly make to how do I enable the, the team? And I remember especially during my first management role, I obviously struggled a lot. You, you know, you pass through that first phase, I call it kind of the honeymoon period, where you're excited, you got a new job, you got a new title, you know, you're getting a bump in your compensation, etc, but then things start to kind of hit, you know, reality starts to hit pretty quickly. So you start getting escalation emails from stakeholders about projects that are not being delivered. At times you may have, for example, people have decided to leave from your team. So you have attrition.

Omar Halabieh [00:07:58]:

So it really at times like gets a lot worse before it gets better in that respect. And what you try to do at the time is you Try to jump in and leverage the muscles that you have, which is primarily around, like, individual. What I call, like, individual heroics. So you try to pick up the pieces. You try to jump in and solve some of the problems. Like, hey, if a project's running behind, you may roll up your sleeves and go start coding after hours to get the project back on track. But what you quickly realize is you end up playing almost like whack a mole, right? So you're fixing one thing, but two, three things are falling apart. Up until you really reach a breaking point to say, hey, I cannot sustain this anymore.

Omar Halabieh [00:08:42]:

Clearly, you're not delivering the impact that you thought you would, and neither is it really benefiting the organization. And you start to feel like, obviously, some sense of burnout because you're trying to do all of that. And also a sense of like, hey, am I failing at the role? Particularly given that you were, like, super high performer previously as an individual contributor. I think for me, the turning point really, when sort of I hit that rock bottom and decided, hey, I'm just gonna go talk to a senior leader in the organization as a mentor and really get some advice in terms of, like, how do I actually go about this? And then also in parallel, how do I start educating myself? You know, through reading, through listening to podcasts, or any other means to say, like, hey, this is a new discipline. I need to learn it. And so how do I take all of these resources and start leveraging them? And from then, things started to click. I started to look at problems in a new way. I started to look at my team members in a new way.

Omar Halabieh [00:09:47]:

I started looking at the engagement with stakeholders in a new way. And I was equipped with tools and resources to be able to better manage these situations. And then things started to click, slowly but surely. And then I was on that upward trajectory to where not only results were coming in, but. But I regained that confidence also in myself and my abilities to succeed. And then I also started to see, like, the reward of the role in terms of, like, as team members stepped up. I remember distinctly, like, for example, a team member coming to me after a project and telling me that, hey, they've been able to achieve something they never thought possible or they never thought that they could themselves achieve. That sense of satisfaction you get from that is, like, unparalleled.

Omar Halabieh [00:10:32]:

So then you continue to build on that. But it is a. It is a tough journey. I'm not going to sugarcoat it.

Matt Gjertsen [00:10:39]:

No, Yeah. I mean, and I love how you put it. I think one of the Biggest things that people need to realize when they become a people manager is that, as you said, it is a new discipline. It's this new thing that's going to take just as much rigor as it took to develop your initial skill set as an individual contributor. You know, it's a whole, you know, people spend years going to college and being interns and just doing projects to build up these technical skills. And it can be kind of daunting to just like, oh, wait, there's this whole other thing over here, this whole other bag of skills. And yeah, I do think in my experience, the thing I've seen 100% is the most common limiting factor is when new people who transition from being technically excellent into people manager roles, they keep trying to use that technically excellent muscle to solve all the problems and just. And they really say, okay, I'll do it.

Matt Gjertsen [00:11:37]:

And yeah, the hero mode, as you put it, and it just, it just burns. Burns people out.

Omar Halabieh [00:11:41]:

Yeah.

Matt Gjertsen [00:11:43]:

What are some other common, you know, since you've been doing this for so long, you are now, you know, you've moved through several layers of leadership. I'm sure you've seen many people get promoted into the. In this way. What are some of the other common early stumbling blocks you see when people first become people managers?

Omar Halabieh [00:11:58]:

Sure. I think first and foremost, I would say thinking that your job is really to have all the answers. I remember early in a lot of the meetings that I used to have as a, as a people manager, like, the team member would barely start talking about maybe a situation or a problem that they're having. And all of a sudden I'm in there trying to solve it, fix it, whatever else that was there. I think over time what I realized is obviously this made the team then hesitate to bring up anything too, and then it was also stunting their growth. So I really at that point realized like, you know, great leadership is more about asking the right questions and really knowing when you should deep dive versus when is it important to step back and let others develop their judgment and their expertise and that in that respect. So that was, for me, maybe one of the top ones on the list. I think second, I would say is especially true for me at the time and also for many that I've mentored.

Omar Halabieh [00:12:57]:

Especially when you lead a team that you used to be part of, meaning you're now leading your peers. I think this concept of like, seeking to be liked. So I feel like I, you know, I catch myself especially that I felt like I wanted to remain liked by my peers. So I would sit, for example, weeks on out with, you know, hard feedback that I should be giving to the team member, but being worried that if I deliver it, what would they think, how would it break the relationship, et cetera. So really what I learned the hard way is, you know, being kind isn't really the same thing as, like, being nice in that respect. And that the team, you know, is not looking necessarily for you to be their best friend, but they're looking for you to lead and provide that leadership that's trusted and respected also. So I think everything there started to kind of turn around when I started to basically give that honest feedback and really seek to drive the right outcome versus, in some sense, just optimizing for what was the nice thing to say or what was the thing you would do to be liked. And then the last part I would say is delegation and specifically not delegating enough.

Omar Halabieh [00:14:11]:

This was one of my biggest struggles as well. Especially I used to, even when I delegated, I used to like over, literally physically over team members, desks, watching them, what they were doing, giving them feedback on every single point of things that they were doing, trying to make sure that things were done exactly and perfectly as I would do them myself. And again, not only was I creating a massive bottleneck for the team because that meant no progress could be made. Un know I was there, but I was.

Matt Gjertsen [00:14:41]:

You were there?

Omar Halabieh [00:14:42]:

Yeah. But I was like driving my team crazy and burning myself out also in the. In the process. So I think definitely learned to see sort of delegation now much more of an investment in the forward capacity of the team and their growth, and also my ability to focus my energy into things that I'm only or I can contribute the most to towards as well. So those are probably three things that I would say that I see both in terms of my own journey, but also a lot of folks that I mentor early on in their leadership journey.

Matt Gjertsen [00:15:16]:

Yeah, I mean, that definitely tracks with what I hear from so many people, especially that delegation piece and that kind of switch to really focusing on helping others, helping others grow. Were there any. I mean, you mentioned you did a lot of reading. You went to a, you know, a senior leader to get some mentorship, specifically on that kind of like, delegation piece. Were there any behaviors or tricks, like habits that you tried to build in yourself early on to try to be better at delegation?

Omar Halabieh [00:15:45]:

A couple of things I would say there. First one is make sure that the why and the context behind what it is that you're delegating is clear. If I look Back early in my journey I used to just push out tasks like please go do X or please go do Y. And then of course like as a team member uses their best judgment to do it in a way that they think is reasonable, they would be missing the context. For example, let's say we're working on a presentation and if I don't give them the context that this presentation is, say for example, certain level of leaders in the organization, the quality of what may come out, or the scope or the level of detail that's involved, would we way off the mark and it would cause a lot of churn and a lot of sort of back and forth in that, in that respect. So I was one. I think the second one is basically help link it to how this will help the team member, you know, grow and develop because you also don't want it to seem like hey, you're just passing them work there. So as you explain to them why it's important and also how it will help them, I think it drives that higher level of ownership and engagement on the, on the task there.

Omar Halabieh [00:17:02]:

I think the third and final one is really about setting expectations and setting like the check in mechanisms ahead of time just so that team members also don't feel like you're micromanaging them or that maybe you're not giving them enough support and guidance. So that balance, I feel the more you're able to set that expectation up front of what that looks like and what you expect, I think just helps make sure that you remain on the same page and helps make it a good experience for both parties.

Matt Gjertsen [00:17:33]:

Yeah, this is really reminded me of a conversation actually had yesterday. I think it was the day before yesterday where we were talking about the importance of storytelling for managers. And the conversation kind of started in the guise of founders who are going to seek funding and they need to be able to tell a story. But it really quickly got back to for every manager because a lot of what you just said I think is so right. It's that it's not about just giving a task, it's telling a story in a way about what this task is for, what it relates to, why it's important to them. And storytelling can sound like a big thing, like oh, you want me to write a multi page email every time I want to tell. And it's not that, but you get good at it. So you know the key things to say so that in just two or three lines you can tell a complete story about what all the context of this task is.

Matt Gjertsen [00:18:24]:

Because I do think, yeah, you're right. You tend to forget as you move up, like the additional levels of visibility that you have that the people beneath you may not have. And it's your job to pass that on.

Omar Halabieh [00:18:36]:

Totally. And a lot of times it also goes both ways. And what I mean by that is also that as team members both get the context and understand how this relates to them, they're also able to potentially flag blind spots that you have in terms of something that you haven't thought about either. So it goes both way in that respect also.

Matt Gjertsen [00:18:58]:

Yeah, totally. So a lot of this discussion, a lot of the things we just talked about were really focused on how we're empowering people, getting other people to solve the problems, getting other people to grow. But I'd kind of like to take the other side of that coin too for a second because you started off about how, you know, as you know when you first become a people manager, you're still highly reliant on those technical skills and you have to teach yourself, okay, how do I stop relying on my technical skills? But in a lot of companies that I work with, you know, in what I see in highly technical companies, there is that balance of you need to maintain some technical ability kind of no matter how high you go, so that you need to stay connected to like the day to day work, the day to day problems. How have you navigated that balance as you have moved up? How technical do you need to stay as you move up the ranks of leadership?

Omar Halabieh [00:19:54]:

Sure. So I would say from a technical standpoint, the word I like to use here is you need to be technical enough so that you have sound judgment. And that sound judgment is primarily for you to be able to detect when things potentially are about to go off in a, in a, maybe an incorrect, let's say, direction in that respect, or be able to ask the right questions, challenge the team and the way that, you know, they're thinking through a problem, etc. So it's not so much as to like the doing part in terms of like, hey, if I go in today and I, and I try to code, of course I can do it, but like, am I going to be as efficient or effective in doing so as like somebody who's doing it day in and day out, you know, for the same number of years. Probably not. But the question is that if you become totally disconnected from having that strong technical judgment, then in a way you can't be trusted to lead the organization and make sure that we're collectively driving the right outcomes So a lot of that again starts to say in terms of like, how are you able to ask the right questions? How are you able to what I call like sniff execution smells in terms of things that tell you that either, for example, a design that we may be putting together may have some flaws, or maybe, you know, technical implementation that we're driving could be headed for trouble, or there may be things that we need to look around corners. So a lot of that judgment really helps you detect some of these things, helps you be a lot more proactive as opposed to obviously then reacting when all of a sudden you have like an actual, say, production issue or something like that in that respect. So that's the way at least that I see that kind of manifesting itself.

Omar Halabieh [00:21:48]:

And there are obviously numerous ways through which you do that. One of the things that I love to do with my team is going into some of the whiteboarding sessions with the engineers. Just have the engineer kind of set up and explain to me, like, what are we doing, how are these systems working, you know, what are we adding, what are we changing, etc. So I think these free flowing conversations not only are great ways to build rapport, but they're also in a way helping you stay connected to that, to that level of detail. And of course there you have to follow your curiosity, ask questions, dig deeper, etc. But I think these sessions at least are one way and obviously there are many other ways. Some more structured and formal, some a lot less formal in terms of conversations.

Matt Gjertsen [00:22:37]:

Yeah, I really love how you put that though. It's really understanding what the technical ability is for what you're trying to do with it. And so it's not that you're trying to go build things and solve those problems, but it's so that you can sniff out the. Sniff out other problems and see where things are going wrong and kind of apply a little bit of. Yeah, apply that judgment to it totally.

Omar Halabieh [00:22:59]:

And understand basically in a lot of ways, like trade offs we may be making, understanding also the, both the potential and also the limitations of some of say the technologies that we're using as well. Because these all have an impact on say, the technology strategy, but also in terms of how that technology performs.

Matt Gjertsen [00:23:20]:

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I mean, I think obviously in a lot of industries right now we're seeing lots of shifts in that. I mean, with companies like Boeing struggling and things like that, a lot of that discussion is around, you know, at different levels of leadership having enough competency to sniff out those things and whether, whether or not they do or don't. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Well, you, you've obviously spent, you know, your, your whole career in, in the tech industry. And I think, you know, the tech industry especially right now is known as being very growth focused, performance focused.

Matt Gjertsen [00:23:54]:

I think on the people management side, you know, a lot of this discussion, some of it has been around, you know, you're, you're looking after your people and caring about your people and where do you. So for frontline managers, for people who are just promoted and obviously this is going to be different at every, at every organization.

Omar Halabieh [00:24:10]:

Sure.

Matt Gjertsen [00:24:11]:

But where do you kind of see the primary role of managers and how do they strike that balance between like the performance side and the people side in an organization?

Omar Halabieh [00:24:21]:

Sure. I think when I think about sort of the role of the frontline manager, I'd like to think of it as, while there are many underpinnings of how you do that and how you get there, but it helps to start from the end and work backwards. And essentially as a frontline manager, what you're trying to do is what I would call like creating nonlinear impact with your team. And so if you think about that, you have, say you're managing five people, really your role as a leader is basically how do we, with five people create an impact that mirrors maybe a lot more than just the sum of the individual, of what each person brings to the table. And so I feel like this is basically done through a focus on what I would think are three pillars. The first one is really about setting an inspiring direction is fundamental. So this really starts by understanding where your business is headed at whatever level that you're operating at. And not just about where it is today, but really where it's trying to go so that you can anticipate and help move your team in that direction.

Omar Halabieh [00:25:35]:

And it's also about then how do you connect what people are working on to that vision so that people also both feel empowered and feel like they're part of something bigger in terms of like we're achieving these business objectives, these organizational objectives, and in return it's helping us grow in that journey. And fundamentally it's about making sure that whatever your team is working on is not just busy work. It's actually driving meaningful impact to the, to the business. I think the second one is really around shaping the environment where high performance thrives. So it's about creating a, let's say a high performing culture. The analogy I love to use is think of yourself as a, as a gardener. You're really focused a lot on the conditions that help, you know, all the folks that you have on the team thrive. So a lot of the things we talk about in terms of like, you know, building an inclusive culture, embracing like, diversity of perspectives and thoughts, making sure everybody is valued, making sure everybody feels like they, they belong.

Omar Halabieh [00:26:41]:

But it's also around what are the processes that you're putting in place that really help that performance to, to stand out. So, for example, you may say, hey, we're going to have a structured process through which we do some operational review, because process allow you to, you know, set and maintain a high standard. And I think speaking of standard, like, I feel one of the primary jobs of the leader is really to raise the bar on the, on the standard. And at the end of the day, like, what we tolerate becomes the norm and the level. And so you have to make sure that you're holding a high bar on the team. Of course, you have to be clear on expectation and you have to support the team to meet those expectations. But that accountability, I feel is key. And then the last part of the three pillars is, you know, what we call hire and develop the best.

Omar Halabieh [00:27:34]:

So that for me, it drives everything else. So you got to make sure that you're hiring the right people in terms of like, both the skills they're bringing, the culture of fitment that they have, etc. But I think it's really about how do you leverage each individual for the strength that they bring to the table. How do you create these stretch opportunities for them, them to help them grow. And again, I think that one of the things that, you know, we talked about this before is like, it gives you the most satisfaction as a manager is really when you see that people have really built their potential and achieved a lot more than what they ever thought was capable. I think for me is, you know, one of the key things there. And when you get these three elements right, it really just creates a, like a flywheel of growth that is enabled. And it really makes people both excited to come to work because they feel like, hey, this is work that I'm doing that is both benefiting me and having a disproportionate impact.

Matt Gjertsen [00:28:35]:

Yeah, I couldn't agree more with you on that feeling that you've mentioned a couple times now when you really empower someone or when someone comes to you and said like, wow, I can't believe I never thought I would do this. It's almost like becoming a parent or something where it's like, you can't imagine what it's hard to imagine what it feels like before. And I wonder if that's one of the reasons why so many. Why especially that first transition is so difficult, because you have no concept of, like, what that feeling is when someone comes to you that you. That you've really empowered in that way. And then once you. But once you have it, it's like, oh, I want to do that.

Omar Halabieh [00:29:10]:

Yeah, totally.

Matt Gjertsen [00:29:13]:

Yeah. Awesome. Well, I think that that's a really great way to finish, I think, because it's just like, this is a super. I think. I think you're right. It's just. It's such an empower. Being a.

Matt Gjertsen [00:29:21]:

Being a manager allows you to have so much positive impact on people when you do it. Well, this has been. This has been a really, really great discussion. You can tell that you spend a lot of time on this because everything you say, all of your thoughts are so clean and distilled. It's amazing how, if people want to hear more from you, what are some of the ways that they should follow you or reach out to you?

Omar Halabieh [00:29:45]:

Sure. Appreciate it. The best way to connect with me is on LinkedIn. I write daily about leadership, career and management, so I look forward to connecting with anyone who wants to reach out or read my work there.

Matt Gjertsen [00:29:59]:

Yeah. Awesome. Well, I highly recommend everybody check out Omar on LinkedIn. He really does. And he's putting together some really. You got some great videos that you're putting out. Everything I can tell you're really putting a lot of effort into. So thank you so much.

Matt Gjertsen [00:30:12]:

Thank you, everybody, for listening today, and I'll talk to you again soon.

Omar Halabieh [00:30:16]:

Omar, take care.